Just wanted to pin a note here to say thank you all so much for your comments here so far – I've read all of them and it really makes me feel less unreasonable, picky and even slightly insane to know so many of us are agonising to the same degree! And thanks for all the recommendations :)
I have followed along with your story with much interest! We rented in London for ~4 years and then moved out to buy a small house in a commuter town. We’re now selling up after 4 years here and moving back into London (albeit zone 5…) and actually getting a bigger house for our money. I felt lonely and isolated here - everyone commutes but I work from home, and I never felt like we fit in. People have asked us why we’re going back in because usually this happens the other way around, but I just missed an intangible sense of feeling “part of the world” in London that I just don’t get anywhere else. It’s probably a me problem rather than anything wrong with the town but regardless, it’s real to me. I don’t know if this is the right decision for us either, but I think you’re spot on in realising you probably don’t really want to go. Trust your instincts - you’ve been dragging your feet for a reason, even if you aren’t consciously aware of what that is! :-)
I lived and rented in London for 15 years and don't regret a single moment, or penny! It meant I got to live in areas and homes I could never afford to buy and I think money spent on happiness and experience is money well spent. As a homeowner, what with mortgage rates and my appetite for period properties, I can tell you it feels MUCH more expensive that renting in many ways. As for leaving London - take your time over it. I mourned the move for 2 years and am only now at a point where I'm not sulking about it. x
Your desire for ‘a quieter neighbourhood with a sense of community’ within London is interesting. We are very fortunate to own a place in one of London’s quieter neighbourhoods (one of those places an estate agent calls a ‘village’) and we also have a flat in the Barbican.
Our west London ‘village’ does have a sense of community in that it is mostly populated by a diverse mix of middle-class London families and older workers and retirees who share basic values and lifestyles. We all live in a quiet area in a shared place, with a shared park and a shared high street.
But that seems no different to me to the shared community which I also feel at the Barbican. The Barbican similarly seems to be populated by middle class workers and retirees (though fewer families) living in a shared space (and a very structurally defined shared space at that) with shared values, a shared arts centre, shared architecture, and shared gardens, which creates, to me, a similar abstract sense of community to the west London ‘village’.
But beyond this abstract view of shared community, it is your own personal community that really matters. From my long life of being more an observer of community rather than much of a participant within it, I have found geographically local personal communities in the place you live, seem to come from:
(1) parents of kids in the same primary school;
(2) communities of members of local sports/hobby clubs;
(3) neighbours; and
(4) dog walkers who meet and chat in the park.
Living in a place where you share life and moral values with many other members of your community leads to a feeling of a shared community, especially when it exists in a defined geographical area, and it increases the chance of you finding local personal communities you can relate to, to interact with and join. But it doesn’t necessarily mean that you WILL find community in that place.
From what I observe, to be a part of a community rather than to just live in it, you have to have kids, a dog, good neighbours, and be able to play tennis!
Honestly I feel so seen Eleanor! This is the exact situation I’m in. We have also been talking about moving out of London for about 4 years. We have two young children and live in a 2 bed flat that we own in Denmark hill. We are so unbelievably grateful to own our own flat but it’s tricky, the second bedroom isn’t big enough for two beds so one of the girls sleeps on a mattress we put on the floor at night, and it also functions as my husband’s office so it’s a bit of a nightmare on days when he is WFH and the girls are home too. We are desperate for a life with a garden especially, and I agree with you on the other points like crime (phone snatching and mugging are rife here), wanting to not hear your neighbours all the time (our upstairs neighbour, while lovely, is a DJ, and also is awake playing music at 2am when we’re desperately trying to get in precious sleep before the children wake up), and pollution is another big one I’m just so over. But then trying to move out is bloody difficult; the cost to commute is huge, places which are commutable are almost as expensive as London, and there are so many things I’d miss (being close to friends, diversity, cute coffee shops, restaurants etc). It’s an impossible choice really. I think the worst bit of it is the “in between”, it feels like it’s been such a stress the past few years, when in reality it would probably be better to just make a choice and stick with it. When there is so much horror and sadness in the world it feels so ridiculous to even be upset about it as we are so incredibly lucky to have a warm place to lay our heads at night, but it is just a background stress that seems to always be there in my mind. I wish you luck on your decision and hope you can move out of the in between, I really hope that we get there at some point soon too.
I moved from London to Hove just over a year ago and I’ve not regretted a single thing! I was feeling claustrophobic since the pandemic and I wanted a bigger home too. I can’t tell you what a blessing living by the sea has been 🌊🐡
PS I chose Hove because Brighton is herself a mini city with everything you need vs moving to a teeny tiny village. This means that I don’t feel like I’m losing out on theatres, exhibitions, restaurants etc that I had in London
Now that you don't have the cheaper rent tying you to the flat, would you try another area, say South East? I feel sad you're held back because of potential noise issues, I am also quite noise sensitive but haven't had any problems in most of my moves around London. Lots of leafy areas around South East with lovely high streets too :)
I second this suggestion, but for SW London. Loads of 1-2 bed places here (I'm between Streatham and Tooting) for under £2k, and the neighbourhood is *lovely*. Genuine sense of community. I have small kids, which does make it easier, but there's also loads going on for people without children, and it's a really easy commute into central London, with two walkable train stations and the tube a short bus ride (or reasonably walk) away.
I’ve followed your dilemma from the start because it really struck a cord, there are so many parallels with my own situation – I’m in a tiny, fairly horrid flat in Paris, which I work from alone all day too, and I’m desperate to get out (in large part for my mental health too) but I just cannot possibly afford anything better in Paris, having looked for the past couple of years. But I’ve been dragging my feet because I can’t bear to leave, despite how unhappy I am. It’s hard even to accept I’m not happy here. I think I’ve finally hit on a solution now – Marseille (like the other million Parisians who have moved there in recent years) – but it’s still a huge decision and a compromise and hard to let go.
It's such a difficult decision to make, and I did it after 10+ years in London on a pandemic whim, but then I was lucky enough to have found an affordable (very!) fixer-upper house. I miss London deeply, and some days just want to come back, but it's just such an unaffordable place. For me, the next best thing might be moving closer to a major city (or London), downsizing a bit and then having the countryside I crave with the culture I want a bit closer, but striking the balance...I don't even know if it's possible. I think just working out what's most important to you and then realising that no result will be 100% perfect is the answer. So difficult I know.
It’s so hard! The cost of living here now is just off the scale isn’t it. When I first moved here at 22 I was on a graduate salary and still managed to rent a large converted warehouse apartment in Shoreditch, there’s no way I could do that if I’d just graduated now!
The cost of living really is out of hand, it's stretching most people, and especially in any sort of creative industry. I've heard of lots of good growth happening up North currently, so keeping an eye on that. I'd take every ounce of joy out of London that you possibly can and when/if it's 'time' you'll feel it in your bones! I kept having dreams about the sea, seeing the shoreline, over and over, night after night, and that craving just took me over, so I gave in. Although I can't say that I now see the sea every day as I'd originally planned. It's not an easy call to make.
My husband and I recently moved out of a 450 sqft apartment. We lived there for three years and both work from home. It was cute and fun at first but by the end we were ready to burn it all down. Our city is similar in the sense that rental units are insanely expensive (Victoria, BC). We opted for a suite in a home with a beautiful garden (and 3X the space!!). It's much better for us but the noise from the neighbours is annoying—thin walls, ugh. We definitely don't have the budget to meet all our wish-list items, so we had to prioritize what was most important. For now....square feet takes the cake! Looking forward to hearing more about your home journey. I appreciate your honesty, it's nice to see I'm not the only one who isn't currently renovating their dream home. xx
I hope you find something Eleanor. For me a dark apartment all day would send me to the depths of despair. I live in Queens NY- a very unfashionable section of NYC but one with easy access to the hot spots. (Albeit by subway) . Gorg apt though. For me the compromise was worth it. Good luck.
I've been struggling with this as well in NYC for the past few years. Yearning for fresh air, a tight-knit community, and a more serene setting but it costs a huuuuge chunk of change to move out of the city and I worry we're going to get bored and regret it 💔
When we are in our 20's, the city equals life. By the time we have reached the realties our mid 30's, life becomes more than endless walking and city spaces. The trick is finding the city within the city.....the one "perilously close" to the real thing. The Marseilles move is the idea. So is living in Mount Verrnon, NY. In our bones, we all know where home is. And, where it is not.
I think that all depends on your circumstances and preferences, I’m in my 40s now and the city is definitely still life! My priorities haven’t changed at all in that sense. People have suggested Paris suburbs to me and I just could not live in a suburb. But you’re right, the trick is to find the city that you can afford that’s still enough of a city! I think we’re seeing and will see more of secondary cities coming to the fore given the housing crisis all across Europe with wildly unaffordable capitals.
Have this debate with myself daily. My boyfriend's family are Windsor based which is perfect! But when we it comes down it, we really just love London. We're also in East Dulwich which actually offers a lot of what we'd leave London for (community, predominantly independent high street, lots of really genuinely lovely parks)... Maybe an area to keep an eye on for a foot in both ;)
Ah! So much of what you’ve written here whirls round my mind on a daily basis. I’m happily house sharing in East London now but before, when I live with my ex partner, I felt a huge pressure to justify why we were still living in a shoebox flat that cost the earth. I asked myself too - if we work from home and can afford more space out of London, why aren’t we going? It’s a real head / heart pull. But I felt like you. A writer too, the daily connection I could find in a street in a London just in no way compared to the draw or the countryside - for me anyway. I love walking into a cafe with my writing or reading and finding three other people doing the same as me. No words need to be exchanged but you feel you’re part of a community. Green space and a slower pace out of London appeals definitely but I don’t know if I could ever give up the ease at which I can slip into London’s city spaces and feel like I belong.
Just wanted to pin a note here to say thank you all so much for your comments here so far – I've read all of them and it really makes me feel less unreasonable, picky and even slightly insane to know so many of us are agonising to the same degree! And thanks for all the recommendations :)
I have followed along with your story with much interest! We rented in London for ~4 years and then moved out to buy a small house in a commuter town. We’re now selling up after 4 years here and moving back into London (albeit zone 5…) and actually getting a bigger house for our money. I felt lonely and isolated here - everyone commutes but I work from home, and I never felt like we fit in. People have asked us why we’re going back in because usually this happens the other way around, but I just missed an intangible sense of feeling “part of the world” in London that I just don’t get anywhere else. It’s probably a me problem rather than anything wrong with the town but regardless, it’s real to me. I don’t know if this is the right decision for us either, but I think you’re spot on in realising you probably don’t really want to go. Trust your instincts - you’ve been dragging your feet for a reason, even if you aren’t consciously aware of what that is! :-)
Thank you, god it’s so hard to know isn’t it but at least (unlike me!) you had the balls to actually give it a go, so now you know for sure!
I lived and rented in London for 15 years and don't regret a single moment, or penny! It meant I got to live in areas and homes I could never afford to buy and I think money spent on happiness and experience is money well spent. As a homeowner, what with mortgage rates and my appetite for period properties, I can tell you it feels MUCH more expensive that renting in many ways. As for leaving London - take your time over it. I mourned the move for 2 years and am only now at a point where I'm not sulking about it. x
As a side, was just chatting about this Substack to a friend and accidentally called Eleanor Cordon Bleu. Think that should stick tbh.
Cackling laughing at this! I need to change my name.
Your desire for ‘a quieter neighbourhood with a sense of community’ within London is interesting. We are very fortunate to own a place in one of London’s quieter neighbourhoods (one of those places an estate agent calls a ‘village’) and we also have a flat in the Barbican.
Our west London ‘village’ does have a sense of community in that it is mostly populated by a diverse mix of middle-class London families and older workers and retirees who share basic values and lifestyles. We all live in a quiet area in a shared place, with a shared park and a shared high street.
But that seems no different to me to the shared community which I also feel at the Barbican. The Barbican similarly seems to be populated by middle class workers and retirees (though fewer families) living in a shared space (and a very structurally defined shared space at that) with shared values, a shared arts centre, shared architecture, and shared gardens, which creates, to me, a similar abstract sense of community to the west London ‘village’.
But beyond this abstract view of shared community, it is your own personal community that really matters. From my long life of being more an observer of community rather than much of a participant within it, I have found geographically local personal communities in the place you live, seem to come from:
(1) parents of kids in the same primary school;
(2) communities of members of local sports/hobby clubs;
(3) neighbours; and
(4) dog walkers who meet and chat in the park.
Living in a place where you share life and moral values with many other members of your community leads to a feeling of a shared community, especially when it exists in a defined geographical area, and it increases the chance of you finding local personal communities you can relate to, to interact with and join. But it doesn’t necessarily mean that you WILL find community in that place.
From what I observe, to be a part of a community rather than to just live in it, you have to have kids, a dog, good neighbours, and be able to play tennis!
Honestly I feel so seen Eleanor! This is the exact situation I’m in. We have also been talking about moving out of London for about 4 years. We have two young children and live in a 2 bed flat that we own in Denmark hill. We are so unbelievably grateful to own our own flat but it’s tricky, the second bedroom isn’t big enough for two beds so one of the girls sleeps on a mattress we put on the floor at night, and it also functions as my husband’s office so it’s a bit of a nightmare on days when he is WFH and the girls are home too. We are desperate for a life with a garden especially, and I agree with you on the other points like crime (phone snatching and mugging are rife here), wanting to not hear your neighbours all the time (our upstairs neighbour, while lovely, is a DJ, and also is awake playing music at 2am when we’re desperately trying to get in precious sleep before the children wake up), and pollution is another big one I’m just so over. But then trying to move out is bloody difficult; the cost to commute is huge, places which are commutable are almost as expensive as London, and there are so many things I’d miss (being close to friends, diversity, cute coffee shops, restaurants etc). It’s an impossible choice really. I think the worst bit of it is the “in between”, it feels like it’s been such a stress the past few years, when in reality it would probably be better to just make a choice and stick with it. When there is so much horror and sadness in the world it feels so ridiculous to even be upset about it as we are so incredibly lucky to have a warm place to lay our heads at night, but it is just a background stress that seems to always be there in my mind. I wish you luck on your decision and hope you can move out of the in between, I really hope that we get there at some point soon too.
I moved from London to Hove just over a year ago and I’ve not regretted a single thing! I was feeling claustrophobic since the pandemic and I wanted a bigger home too. I can’t tell you what a blessing living by the sea has been 🌊🐡
PS I chose Hove because Brighton is herself a mini city with everything you need vs moving to a teeny tiny village. This means that I don’t feel like I’m losing out on theatres, exhibitions, restaurants etc that I had in London
Now that you don't have the cheaper rent tying you to the flat, would you try another area, say South East? I feel sad you're held back because of potential noise issues, I am also quite noise sensitive but haven't had any problems in most of my moves around London. Lots of leafy areas around South East with lovely high streets too :)
South East London I must clarify haha
I second this suggestion, but for SW London. Loads of 1-2 bed places here (I'm between Streatham and Tooting) for under £2k, and the neighbourhood is *lovely*. Genuine sense of community. I have small kids, which does make it easier, but there's also loads going on for people without children, and it's a really easy commute into central London, with two walkable train stations and the tube a short bus ride (or reasonably walk) away.
I’ve followed your dilemma from the start because it really struck a cord, there are so many parallels with my own situation – I’m in a tiny, fairly horrid flat in Paris, which I work from alone all day too, and I’m desperate to get out (in large part for my mental health too) but I just cannot possibly afford anything better in Paris, having looked for the past couple of years. But I’ve been dragging my feet because I can’t bear to leave, despite how unhappy I am. It’s hard even to accept I’m not happy here. I think I’ve finally hit on a solution now – Marseille (like the other million Parisians who have moved there in recent years) – but it’s still a huge decision and a compromise and hard to let go.
It's such a difficult decision to make, and I did it after 10+ years in London on a pandemic whim, but then I was lucky enough to have found an affordable (very!) fixer-upper house. I miss London deeply, and some days just want to come back, but it's just such an unaffordable place. For me, the next best thing might be moving closer to a major city (or London), downsizing a bit and then having the countryside I crave with the culture I want a bit closer, but striking the balance...I don't even know if it's possible. I think just working out what's most important to you and then realising that no result will be 100% perfect is the answer. So difficult I know.
It’s so hard! The cost of living here now is just off the scale isn’t it. When I first moved here at 22 I was on a graduate salary and still managed to rent a large converted warehouse apartment in Shoreditch, there’s no way I could do that if I’d just graduated now!
The cost of living really is out of hand, it's stretching most people, and especially in any sort of creative industry. I've heard of lots of good growth happening up North currently, so keeping an eye on that. I'd take every ounce of joy out of London that you possibly can and when/if it's 'time' you'll feel it in your bones! I kept having dreams about the sea, seeing the shoreline, over and over, night after night, and that craving just took me over, so I gave in. Although I can't say that I now see the sea every day as I'd originally planned. It's not an easy call to make.
My husband and I recently moved out of a 450 sqft apartment. We lived there for three years and both work from home. It was cute and fun at first but by the end we were ready to burn it all down. Our city is similar in the sense that rental units are insanely expensive (Victoria, BC). We opted for a suite in a home with a beautiful garden (and 3X the space!!). It's much better for us but the noise from the neighbours is annoying—thin walls, ugh. We definitely don't have the budget to meet all our wish-list items, so we had to prioritize what was most important. For now....square feet takes the cake! Looking forward to hearing more about your home journey. I appreciate your honesty, it's nice to see I'm not the only one who isn't currently renovating their dream home. xx
I respect your honesty in this article. Thank you for sharing <3 from Brooklyn
I hope you find something Eleanor. For me a dark apartment all day would send me to the depths of despair. I live in Queens NY- a very unfashionable section of NYC but one with easy access to the hot spots. (Albeit by subway) . Gorg apt though. For me the compromise was worth it. Good luck.
I've been struggling with this as well in NYC for the past few years. Yearning for fresh air, a tight-knit community, and a more serene setting but it costs a huuuuge chunk of change to move out of the city and I worry we're going to get bored and regret it 💔
When we are in our 20's, the city equals life. By the time we have reached the realties our mid 30's, life becomes more than endless walking and city spaces. The trick is finding the city within the city.....the one "perilously close" to the real thing. The Marseilles move is the idea. So is living in Mount Verrnon, NY. In our bones, we all know where home is. And, where it is not.
I think that all depends on your circumstances and preferences, I’m in my 40s now and the city is definitely still life! My priorities haven’t changed at all in that sense. People have suggested Paris suburbs to me and I just could not live in a suburb. But you’re right, the trick is to find the city that you can afford that’s still enough of a city! I think we’re seeing and will see more of secondary cities coming to the fore given the housing crisis all across Europe with wildly unaffordable capitals.
Have this debate with myself daily. My boyfriend's family are Windsor based which is perfect! But when we it comes down it, we really just love London. We're also in East Dulwich which actually offers a lot of what we'd leave London for (community, predominantly independent high street, lots of really genuinely lovely parks)... Maybe an area to keep an eye on for a foot in both ;)
Ah! So much of what you’ve written here whirls round my mind on a daily basis. I’m happily house sharing in East London now but before, when I live with my ex partner, I felt a huge pressure to justify why we were still living in a shoebox flat that cost the earth. I asked myself too - if we work from home and can afford more space out of London, why aren’t we going? It’s a real head / heart pull. But I felt like you. A writer too, the daily connection I could find in a street in a London just in no way compared to the draw or the countryside - for me anyway. I love walking into a cafe with my writing or reading and finding three other people doing the same as me. No words need to be exchanged but you feel you’re part of a community. Green space and a slower pace out of London appeals definitely but I don’t know if I could ever give up the ease at which I can slip into London’s city spaces and feel like I belong.